Podcasting about yourself and challenging norms: An investigation of independent women podcasters in Denmark

Independent podcasting provides a channel for all kinds of voices to express themselves about personal subject matters. In contrast to institutional radio and podcasts, independent podcasters represent themselves and do not undergo any kind of editorial gatekeeping (Adler Berg, 2021a; Markman, 2012; Millette, 2011). This freedom allows for breaking down traditional boundaries regarding what can be said and done in the media. While also engaging specific subcultures through their frequent online interactions with listeners, independent podcasters share characteristics with bloggers, YouTubers, and other types of user-generated content producers (Markman, 2012). Their participatory characteristics lead to offering and receiving support on diverse issues such as disabilities and illnesses (Collins, 2018; Meserko, 2014; Pruulmann-Vengerfeldt & Buchholtz, 2018), ethnic minorities (Vrikki & Malik, 2019), Blackness (Florini, 2017; Fox et al., 2020), and queer identities (Copeland, 2018; Fox, 2008; Zehelein, 2019).

A fast-growing research area within podcast studies focuses on independent podcasting’s capabilities for women. As recording technologies have become more affordable and accessible in recent years, women see opportunities to podcast while doing household work (Wang, 2021). The freedom and intimacy of the medium provide women with narrative power (Greer, 2017) and allow podcasters to challenge norms of gender and sexuality (Adler Berg, 2021b; Copeland, 2018) and discrimination, social stigma, and prejudices against women (Jorgensen, 2021; Zehelein, 2019). Because of its ability to challenge norms – suppressive and uncomfortable as they are for those who cannot inhabit them (Ahmed, 2014) – independent podcasting constitutes a relevant feminist research object.

Yet, these previous studies (Copeland, 2018; Greer, 2017; Jorgensen, 2021; Wang, 2021; Zehelein, 2019) all present textual and auditory analyses. Research on independent podcasting’s possibilities for women requires further quantitative documentation and qualitative investigations from the podcasters’ points of view, and I intend to address the research gap with this article by combining a preliminary quantitative analysis with semi-structured interviews with podcasters. Furthermore, I specifically explore independent women podcasters in Denmark, which is a relevant and complex country-case, for two reasons. First, in comparison with the growing body of academic research on independent podcasts in larger geolinguistic regions such as the US and UK (e.g., Llinares et al., 2018; Spinelli & Dann, 2019), we know very little about independent podcasting in smaller regions. Denmark, with its 5.7 million citizens, provides an opportunity to study this phenomenon. Second, the number of women and men in Denmark listening to podcasts is equal (DR, 2022). Yet, as the preliminary quantitative analysis shows, more men than women are podcasting, and very different topics are discussed and disseminated in podcasts, dependending on the podcaster’s gender. Men tend to podcast about sports, comedy, film, television, and business; women tend to podcast about mental health, personal journals, and parenting. Quantitatively, independent women podcasters engage in what has traditionally been considered female domains (henceforth, traditional female domains), even though they, at a qualitative level, counter institutional media representations and challenge gendered norms (Adler Berg, 2021b; Copeland, 2018; Fox, 2008; Greer, 2017; Jorgensen, 2021; Wang, 2021; Zehelein, 2019).

Hence, this article investigates the relations between engaging in traditional female topics and challenging norms. I ask the following question: Why and how do women use independent podcasting and social media platforms to talk about mental health, personal journals, and parenting while at the same time challenging norms? I consider two sub-themes: 1) the possibilities of independent podcasting for women, including challenging how to speak and what to speak about, and 2) the possibilities of online communities, including receiving emotional and creative support.

To answer these questions, I examine two podcast cases which are both norm-challenging and engaging in traditional female topics: the mental health and personal journals podcast A Seat at The Table and the parenting podcast Our Different Family [Vores Anderledes Familie].

Before embarking on methods and analysis, I present key conceptions of independent podcasting as an oral-aural medium and its potentials and limitations for women, in order to provide a theoretical framework for understanding the podcast cases.

We are all affected and formed by the experience of hearing a person’s voice dominating, talking over, interrupting, or criticising another person’s voice. Consequently, while much has been written about the space privileged bodies take up in visual media and the effects of these physical bodies, we must also consider which voices take up space in the media, what they say, and how they say it. Voice in this regard should be thought of with a dual understanding, conceptualised as what to speak – speech as linguistic production of meaning, or the semantic level – and how to speak – speech as vocal expressions, or the performative level, which includes tone, identity, and emotional register (Lawaetz, 2014).

The voice as the central means of communication in podcasting is inherently intimate, affective, and powerful. It is indeed expressive (Arnheim, 1936/2008), as it reveals basic emotions of fear, passion, happiness, anger, and sadness, which makes the listener realise that the stories the voices tell are actual lived experiences (McHugh, 2012). Podcasting as an oral-aural medium with no visuals to rely upon gives podcasters a space for expressing themselves without worrying about their appearances. Furthermore, the lack of visuals creates empathy as listeners use their imagination to “see” the events unfold (Rodero, 2012). Thus, podcasts, like radio and music, are effective tools of resilience and mobilisation. As radio scholar Kate Lacey (2013: 8) has pointed out, the act of listening to voices involves “both the realm of sensory, embodied experience and the political realm of debate and deliberation [emphasis original]”.

Then what differentiates independent podcasting from institutional podcasting or radio? While large-scale institutionalised formats must reach mass audiences in order to maintain funding and broadcast permission, the lack of editorial gatekeeping in independent podcasting provides people with the freedom to talk about what they want, for as long as they want, how they want, and to whom they want. This authenticity of what is being said and how it is being said has become an aspirational ideal for independent podcasters (e.g., Adler Berg, 2021b; Collins, 2018; Jorgensen, 2021; Meserko, 2014, 2015; Mottram, 2016; Sullivan, 2018) and enables further empathy and identification with the persons talking and being described in the podcasts (e.g., Collins, 2018; Copeland, 2018; Greer, 2017). Independent podcasters reach out “to the world of the similarly minded” (Zehelein, 2019: 145), and they often engage in deeply personal (even private) stories about their own life or the lives of their guests (Adler Berg, 2021a; Collins, 2018; Jorgensen, 2021).

This, in turn, affects listeners, who then deeply engage with the podcasters and their content (Schlütz & Hedder, 2021). Interacting, sharing, and discussing podcasts online are significant motivations for listening to independent podcasts (e.g., Fox et al., 2020; McClung & Johnson, 2010; Perks & Turner, 2018) and consequently, independent podcasters have more online interactions with their listeners than traditional media content producers (Berry, 2016; Löwgren & Reimer, 2013; Markman, 2012; Markman & Sawyer, 2014). In this sense, independent podcasting is not solely a radiogenic medium characterised by parasocial relations between podcasters and listeners, but indeed is also a multisocial cross-media ecosystem (Swiatek, 2018). Through social media platforms, listeners communicate and collaborate about shared interests and challenge norms and societal structures.

In sum, the accessibility, freedom, and authenticity of independent podcasting and its multisocial dimensions are, as Kim Fox, David O. Dowling, and Kyle Miller (2020: 302) find, “well suited to the project of community building”.

Traditional Western radio journalism teaches reporters and hosts to speak without emotion, using the lower range of the voice (Mottram, 2016). Because male (or naturally low-pitched) voices are still associated with authority and credibility, and female (or naturally high-pitched) voices are associated with the domestic sphere (Mottram, 2016), at least in Western countries, women in radio have historically defied their physiology and developed deeper, neutral voices (Mills, 2004). In a Danish context, the Danish Broadcasting Cooperation has, as shown by voice researcher Anna Lawaetz (2014), trained women radio presenters to speak with a narrow frequency and to use certain intonation patterns, while men have been given greater freedom to raise and lower their voices. In another study, Lawaetz (2019) analysed the voices of three high-profile Danish politicians and concluded that their voice pitches dropped concurrently with increasing their political power. And this tendency applies to women in general, as women’s voice pitch on average has dropped by 23 hertz over five decades (Pemberton et al., 1998).

Independent podcasting, characterised by its lack of editorial gatekeeping, becomes a space for rebelling against prevailing linguistic and vocal norms. It permits women to talk about women to other women (Adler Berg, 2021b; Greer, 2017) and to “hear how women really talk and think” (Wang, 2021: 64). Podcast scholar Stacey Copeland (2018: 214) has pointed out that “podcasting and digital soundwork offer a new platform for female voice, including those not traditionally ‘warm’ or ‘low’ enough for radio”, which resonates with Christine Mottram’s (2016: 66) conclusion: “Finding vocal authority in podcasts is not about achieving the traditional Western aesthetic of the low, deep voice, but about sounding like a ‘real’ person: individually authentic”. This way, independent podcasters can change the ideal for women’s voices. If more listeners are exposed to high voices, then they have the possibility of achieving the same status as low voices.

For contextualising and conceptualising independent women podcasters, we see that at least three categories of voices in radio and podcasting exist: 1) the male voice, which uses a wide set of vocal opportunities, 2) the institutional female voice, which has a narrower set of vocal opportunities at its disposal, and 3) the non-institutional (or independent), unrestricted female voice.

Having already discussed the potentials of independent podcasting for women, certain limitations should also be considered. First, limitations concern the increasingly powerful platforms – for example, Apple and Spotify – which independent podcasters must use in order to be found and listened to. A voice not listened to is not recognised as legitimate, according to Kate Lacey (2013: 166): “Without a listener, speech is nothing but noise in the ether”. But platforms have the power to censor or remove podcast episodes, including norm-challenging podcasts which may be considered controversial or inappropriate. Today’s platforms, more commonly, complicate the ability to remain visible to existing listeners and be discovered by new listeners (e.g., Berry, 2016; Sullivan, 2018; Swiatek, 2018) and thus hinder community building. As Wang (2021: 66) argues, the commercialisation of podcasting, in which “more professional programs” are increasingly favoured by platforms, will further marginalise women’s unpaid podcast production work. Discoverability issues may force independent podcasters to spend more time on optimising their content for the infrastructures of platforms and less time on creating their podcasts (Morris, 2021: 18).

Second, limitations may concern listeners’ and podcasters’ expectations of what makes a “good” or “successful” podcast, for example, the opinion that personal subject matters need to be revealed (Collins, 2018), or, as the preliminary quantitative analysis outlined below indicates, that certain topics are suitable for either women and men to podcast about. Normative imperatives for women podcasters also include traditional discourses around women’s voices. A pervasive critique in the media of the popular Danish independent true crime podcast Dark Country (Aurvig & Bugbee, 2018–present) seems illustrative. Despite their many listeners – or because of their mainstream breakthrough – the hosts were publicly criticised for being incompetent, ignorant, and immature, not solely because of their professions as journalists and not detectives, but also because of their high-pitched voices, informal conversational tone, lisps, and vocal fry (the use of the lowest tone of voice characterised by its creaky, breathy sound), which were perceived as inappropriate for discussing murder cases (Nielsen, 2019).

Consequently, as these political, economic, and sociocultural structures are impinging upon their possibilities for expressing themselves and building communities, independent women podcasters may become increasingly institutionalised and suppressed.

In May–June 2020, I sampled 552 independent Danish podcasts and coded these by their formats and topics (for sampling and coding procedure, see Adler Berg, 2021a). One year later, in June 2021, I made use of this previous mapping (Adler Berg, 2021a) to investigate the genders of the podcasters, which I determined by listening to the podcasts and considering the gender pronouns the podcasters used about themselves on their social media accounts. I then divided the genders of the podcasters by the most widespread topics of the podcasts.

Questionnaire surveys conducted almost a decade ago revealed that 90 per cent of English-speaking independent podcasters worldwide, but mostly located in North America, were men producing content for a male audience (Markman, 2012; Markman & Sawyer, 2014). The Danish independent podcasting sphere is, in comparison, considerably more gender-balanced. Still, while women’s and men’s podcast consumption is equal (DR, 2022), more men than women are producing independent podcasts. The preliminary quantitative analysis revealed that 33 per cent of independent podcasts are produced and hosted by women (20% by one woman, 13% by more than one), 57 per cent by men (27% by one man, 30% by more than one), and the remaining 10 per cent by men and women together. The fact that only 10 per cent of the independent podcasts are hosted jointly by both genders may indicate difficulties in finding common interests to podcast about: While men podcast about external topics such as sports, film, television, and business, women are urged to podcast about themselves and their personal inner lives. As much as 37 per cent of all women podcasters podcast about mental health and personal journals, and the second most widespread topic for women, at 11 per cent, is parenting (see Adler Berg, 2021a).

Consequently, while women bloggers, YouTubers, Instagrammers, and independent podcasters have the ability to counter institutional media representations, women still engage in traditional female domains pervaded with emotionality (Ahmed, 2014). A likely explanation might be that they are formed by societal norms to talk about these topics. Reproducing traditional media’s preoccupation with traditional female and traditional male topics makes them no different from, for example, broadcast television, in which programmes about family, relationships, and well-being are hosted by women and sports programmes are hosted by men (Andreassen, 2015).

I selected two podcast cases to investigate why and how women use independent podcasting and their online communities when striving to challenge norms. Two cases seem appropriate for elucidating several aspects of the quantitative findings while still retaining sufficient space in this one article for case studies. The first case selected is A Seat at The Table (ASATT), made by Ingrid Baraka and Naima Yasin who, based on their own and guests’ lived experiences, discuss issues in relation to “being Black women in Denmark” (Baraka & Yasin, 2017a–present); thus, its topic is coded as “mental health and personal journals”. The topic of the second podcast case, Our Different Family (ODF), is coded as “parenting”. ODF is made by Sophie Nielsen, who interviews guests about trying to thrive as a parent in LGBTQ+ family constellations, families struggling with diagnoses, disabilities, illnesses, and so on.

The two podcast cases are purposive (Neergaard, 2010) for five reasons: 1) they are representative of the topics that women podcast about; 2) they have high cultural impact (in terms of social media followers’ numbers, ASATT and ODF have 8,020 and 6,553 followers on Instagram, respectively) (Baraka & Yasin, 2017b–present; Nielsen, 2020b–present); 3) one podcast is led by two women and the other by one woman (to investigate the importance of podcasting as an individual or collaborative practice); 4) the podcasters were unknown to the Danish public before starting their podcasts (to reflect on the theoretical description of independent podcasting as a democratic medium with no editorial gatekeeping); and 5) they explicitly and publicly communicate that they are norm-challenging. Echoing ASATT’s title, the podcast’s description along with several episode intros state that the podcast intends to offer “more people a seat at the table” (Baraka & Yasin, 2017a), thus giving voice to people that Baraka and Yasin find are not represented in institutional media. Likewise, ODF’s description and several of its episode intros announce that the podcast scrutinises what it means to be “different from most families” (Nielsen, 2020a–present). Both podcasts speak from and to minority positions, regardless of their high numbers of listeners and followers.

Figure 1

Previous studies have conducted auditory and textual analyses of independent women podcasts (Copeland, 2018; Greer, 2017; Wang, 2021; Zehelein, 2019). Yet, for the purpose of understanding motivations, experiences, decisions, and emotions, semi-structured interviews are useful (Brinkmann & Kvale, 2009; Lindlof & Taylor, 2011). Thus, I invited the podcasters via e-mail, and semi-structured interviews were carried out 12 April (Baraka and Yasin) and 13 April (Nielsen) 2021 (via Zoom due to the Covid-19 pandemic). The recorded interviews lasted for 47 minutes and 65 minutes, respectively, and were based on the following questions: Why do you podcast? Which possibilities does independence offer you? Why do you podcast about the topics that you podcast about? How and why do you form online relationships with listeners? After transcribing the recorded interviews, I inductively categorised and, finally, analysed them, informed by a close listening to approximately ten episodes of each podcast (Baraka & Yasin, 2017a–present; Nielsen, 2020a–present). All interview quotes were translated from Danish to English by me.

In the following analysis, I discuss the possibilities (and the limitations) of independent podcasting in relation to why Nielsen, Baraka, and Yasin – as is the case for most independent women podcasters – podcast about mental health, personal journals, and parenting. In the second part of the section, I turn towards how they experience the significance of social media activity in relation to their podcasting practice. The analysis is structured according to the research sub-themes (the possibilities of independent podcasting, including challenging how to speak and what to speak, and the possibilities of online communities, including receiving emotional and creative support).

The ASATT project was initially planned to be a magazine, but rather accidently transformed into a podcast. To generate ideas for the magazine without having to make detailed notes, Baraka and Yasin (along with two former podcast members) recorded a conversation amongst themselves, with little interest in sharing it with others. But as they listened to the recording afterwards, they saw the potential of making it public. ASATT’s origin story indicates that conversations constitute the foundation of the podcast. Four women decided to record their conversation which then became the first episode of the podcast, as Baraka explained: “ASATT and the podcast medium have grown symbiotically together, and I think this is our strength: that we have become native to the podcast”.

Yasin and Baraka appreciate podcasting’s audio-only format because, Yasin argued, audiovisual media distract audiences’ attention: “Wearing a scarf, a face mask or whatever means that what you say is not listened to”. Though they post pictures and videos of themselves and podcast guests on social media, podcasting liberates them from being judged by or worrying about their appearances while podcasting. Likewise, Nielsen finds podcasting more adequate for “creating dialogue” in a “natural way” than blogging or YouTubing, which she initially also considered relevant for her project. Nielsen aims to facilitate an unmediated, informal conversation in her podcast:

I decided to podcast because I wanted to hear other people’s stories. But it should be like if I had invited the guest home for a cup of coffee. The conversation has to be without limitations, letting itself unfold [between me and my] guest.

Independent podcasting’s oral-aural vernacular and (fairly) unedited and unscripted nature allows for addressing a wide variety of topics and to let personal, humorous, serious stories, and laughs, affections, cries, frustrations, and anger succeed one another. This conveys a sense of intimacy and authenticity as well as trust (Jorgensen, 2021) for podcast guests and listeners. In fact, surveys of podcast listeners show that revealing personal and intimate stories strengthens the parasocial relations to podcasters (Schlütz & Hedder, 2021). For the podcasters, the conversational format provides comfort when telling their deeply emotional and personal stories and allows for new realisations and insights to emerge. As Spinelli and Dann (2019) have noticed, engaging in deep and open-ended conversations and interviews is a key motivation for podcasting. Academic and podcaster Siobhán McHugh (2007) has argued that the purpose of interviewing is to gain new perspectives and have one’s awareness changed by participating. Similarly, to conversate and interview is, essentially, why Baraka, Yasin, and Nielsen podcast. In fact, Yasin explained that what makes her continue are the conversations with her fellow podcaster and podcast guests. Conversating through independent podcasting provides new perspectives on their own experiences and thoughts about challenging norms and enables the podcasters to share these insights with their listeners.

In short, Baraka, Yasin, and Nielsen seek to challenge norms by revealing their own and guests’ lived experiences with navigating and confronting social norms and discussing these norm-challenging issues in a nuanced, intimate, and open-ended way. Independent podcasting as a conversational, unrestricted, and freely available medium is essential for creating new insights and realisations for themselves, guests, and listeners.

Independent podcasting as a cross-media ecosystem becomes apparent when considering how ASATT and ODF use Instagram, which the podcasters describe as the social media platform with the most followers and interactions with listeners. Consistent with what Fox, Dowling, and Miller (2020) note, reactions are solely supportive, most likely because independent podcast communities exist as “closed” groups which are difficult to search for and harass. If negative reactions occur, Yasin argued, they are intended to “make us aware of our blind spots, or the listeners just want to let out some frustrations aimed at the establishment”.

Baraka and Yasin alternate between episodes with guest interviews and those consisting of conversations between themselves. Except for one monologue episode and the previously mentioned conversations between Nielsen and her husband, Nielsen is dependent on finding guests who are willing to tell their stories in the podcast. In addition, she performs all the podcast production and social media tasks alone as well. The workload of podcasting alone led to her putting the podcast on hold. On the other hand, considering that women are significantly less inclined to podcast together (the preliminary quantitative analysis shows that 13% of women podcast together in comparison to 30% of men), the flexibility of podcasting alone might appeal to women who must find the time in between the various tasks involved in running a household. Either way, as Wang (2021) suggests, production requirements of independent podcasting itself can be incompatible with family obligations, and therefore, Wang stresses, women’s unpaid labour of motherhood, running a household, and childcare is the significant difference between female and male podcasters. For Nielsen, her podcast project contradicts with the labour of childcare to such a degree that – though it is not completely “mommy blogging” (Wang, 2021: 63) – it has become, at least temporarily, an Instagram “mommy blog”.

In the following two sections, I discuss how Nielsen uses Instagram as not only an enhancement of, but also a replacement for, independent podcasting, and how Baraka and Yasin use the affordances of social media (primarily Instagram) to deeply engage with listeners.

This article has addressed the possibilities of independent podcasting for women by asking the following question: Why and how do women use independent podcasting and their social media platforms to talk about mental health, personal journals, and parenting while at the same time challenging norms? To answer this, semi-structured interviews were carried out with the hosts of two norm-challenging independent podcasts: the mental health and personal journals podcast A Seat At The Table and the parenting podcast Our Different Family. The analysis shows that the podcasters use independent podcasting to talk about their own personal, norm-challenging issues (i.e., their mental health, personal journals, and parenting) for two reasons. First, the lack of visuals provides the freedom to speak without worrying about appearances, which is significant when podcasting about personal norm-challenging issues. Second, the conversational, unrestricted medium of independent podcasting allows for creating, receiving, and distributing nuanced, in-depth insights and realisations about challenging the norms that afflict their own lives. They use podcasting to create their own spaces for issues which they find important but unrepresented by institutional media. Independence allows them to be radical in approaching and challenging the norms. This is the reason why they are reluctant to collaborate with or participate in institutional media outlets, which could eventually provide them with mainstream exposure. Their aim is not to reach a broad audience or be acknowledged by “outsiders”, but to benefit their like-minded core-listeners. Who listens is much more essential to the podcasters than how many. Furthermore, by combining various wordings and acknowledging congenital aspects of their voices, they challenge gendered vocal norms in a way that is seldom possible through institutional media outlets. Finding one’s voice (as understood through its dual conceptualisation) by means of independent podcasting affords the process of constructing their own identities.

While the podcast medium provides a platform from which to create and distribute unrestricted content, the affordances of social media platforms allow the podcasters to engage deeply with like-minded listeners. They use Instagram – and, in ASATT’s case, additionally the social audio platform Clubhouse – to build a tight participatory space and extend the sharing of experiences and strategies to navigate and challenge oppressive structures and prejudices. Interactions with listeners on social media platforms provide the podcasters with feedback, content ideas, and, last but not least, emotional support, which is essential for the podcasters to feel less alone in their norm-challenging quest. Instead of optimising their podcast content for distribution platforms to reach a broader audience and new listeners, they intensify their use of social media platforms and create presence, immediacy, and engagement among already existing listeners.

Independent podcasting constitutes an important feminist research area, as it allows marginalised voices and communities to take up their space by speaking about what they want, the way they want, and to whom they want. The stories that independent podcasters tell are made public through the podcast technology which proves suitable for raising awareness, broadening understandings, and even mobilising publics around certain issues – such as changing normative understandings of what women should say and how they should say it. The preliminary quantitative analysis presented in this article shows a gendered podcasting sphere in which women tend to podcast about traditional female domains such as mental health, personal journals, and parenting. Yet, the qualitative analysis reveals that the two podcasts within these traditional female topical categories are not necessarily reproducing norms, but are rather norm-challenging, in that independent women podcasters – as discussed elsewhere (Adler Berg, 2021b) – speak about their own lived experiences as women in order to challenge gendered norms. Through independent podcasting, they can build their own “feminist world” (Ahmed, 2017) and speak freely about the profound emotional labour that comes with being a woman.

Future (quantitative) research should investigate what women and men podcast about in other countries and further explore women’s reasons for podcasting about certain topics – including how independent content creators are affected by women’s increasing visibility in traditional media. The quantitative data here lacks diversity, since only cisgender identities are present in the sample. Combined, the gendered topics and the lack of diversity in the sample suggest that independent podcasting is influenced by homogeneity and cultural conservatism. If the sample included larger or several geolinguistic areas, more genders would probably have been present, which would have allowed for investigating how and why a broad range of genders uses independent podcasting. Furthermore, as gender constitutes the only variable in the quantitative mapping, to code the age, race, or physique of a speaking voice would provide new insights and significantly differentiate the understanding and uses of the medium. Finally, this article has briefly touched upon how women experience their own recorded voices, and this question should be further explored in comparison with how men experience their own voices.